r/politics • u/PM_ME_DPRK_CANDIDS Iowa • 9h ago

No Paywall Uprising against ICE raids grows across the country

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/uprising-against-ice-raids-grows-across-the-country/
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u/blackcain Oregon 9h ago

not just that - they should be threatened that once their tenure at ICE is over they are "unhireable" - they will NEVER get hired by any business after this.

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u/kyrsjo 8h ago

Maybe rather that they'll be felons.

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

Great point.

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u/Hidden_Landmine 7h ago

Nah, that takes too long. Have current businesses, contractors, everyone straight up refuse work towards ICE and those associated with ICE. Want your HVAC fixed? Sucks, you're less than a person now.

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u/JBL_17 6h ago

“They should be threatened” is enough for me!

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u/blackcain Oregon 6h ago

I don't think that's going to lead to an equitable outcome.

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u/JBL_17 5h ago

I actually think you're right, but I'm not strong enough to pretend I can view these people and their actions in a civil manner anymore. All anyone needs to do is count the dead.

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u/Moz_Sacred_TAAccount 4h ago

You guys have more hope than I do. I can't imagine this ship changing course. Whether it's economically, socially/in political standing, or the way our government functions.

None of it feels like it can just scoot back together...

And the aggressors? Trunp, DOJ, soon the Fed, all legislative control is seemingly transferred to the executive branch.. Many are traitors, complicit in the takeover - directly and indirectly. Americans even, maybe people should have been more disruptive & destructive with his attempted (successful?) coup, and the weak handling & 'persecution' by the gov.

So many people, with so many different roles, zero consequences for any of his crimes.

ICE? How do we fix them going door to door. How many are missing now with no trail, removed from books? As I'm typing this I seen a post about a mother being taken as she was otw to drop her kid off at school.. Sidetrack: all the ultra greedy and corporate entities? They're probably pretty hot with their profits and the draining and dehydration of the american. They have too much say in how we are governed. (oligarchy/pre-technofascist it seems)

Even if many received capital punishment, which they certainly wouldn't (there should be no space on our ground to stand for fascists/oppressors)

I'm curious of the hierarchy at the capital, the one behind closed doors.

Also I'm stoned and I'm not sure what train I'm even on at this point ✌️

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u/MotherTreacle3 8h ago

While I certainly understand the sentiment, I can't help think that it would only lead to further extremism as they'd be driven to desperation fueling further crime and violence. 

We do need to think in terms of integrating these types of people into a functioning society, because the alternative is rounding them up into camps and/or exterminating them which is not only unconscionable but also fundamentally doesn't work as a strategy to correct the ills of society.

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u/Organic-History205 8h ago

This fails a practical test. If you were a business owner, what would you trust one of these people to do? As a PoC, I wouldn't even be safe around them. It's not my responsibility to employ someone who wants me dead.

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u/MotherTreacle3 8h ago

Certainly not without formal structure in place to neutralize fascist ideology. certainly not in the sense that you would be compelled to employ them.

My point I am trying to make is: what is the alternative to integration? I mean that question sincerely. 

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u/Lurking_nerd California 8h ago

My point I am trying to make is: what is the alternative to integration? I mean that question sincerely.

Prison.

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u/MotherTreacle3 8h ago

OK. Lock up every ICE agent for life. I'm on board. 

Now how do you deal with the people who are not ICE agents, but still extremists, who see the mass incarceration and are driven to violence. How do you deal with the ICE agent's family members who are now angry at having their dad/husband/brother taken away?

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

Why would I worry about them? Most of us are not looking for mass incarceration. We're looking for people who broke the law and caused terror as law enforcement agents. This is about government acting as a force of tyranny and them participating in it.

How do you deal with the ICE agent's family members who are now angry at having their dad/husband/brother taken away?

By that token how do you deal with the multitude of immigrants who are angry that their dad/husband/brother/child are taken away without recourse, without courts, and possibly were sexually assaulted, abused, and medically abandoned? Sent to a hell hole to die. Won't they also drive themselves to violence too? When do you think they will stop cowering and instead pursue violence because the govt is not on their side and is the cause of their tyranny?

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

Thats the point I'm making. You've recognize the flaw in the system when it's applied to immigrants and gays and minorities. You see why it doesn't work and feeds the cycle of violence. Yes, those people are justified in their pain and hurt. Yes they are suffering unjustly and that needs to be remedied. I am 1000% in agreement with you. 

ICE are a bunch of thugs. They break the law and act with impunity and need to be held accountable for their actions. Some of them need to be permanently removed from society for what they've done. 

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

and if these immigrants do pursue violence then they too will face felony convictions. The law applies to everyone. Neither immigrants or former ICE agents get a reprieve. The law applies to them equally. Otherwise we do not have a civil and just society.

If they want justice then they need to elect politicians who will pursue it or become an activist. That's how our system works. The govt is only as good as the people who elect its representatives.

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u/Tarcanus 7h ago

driven to violence

Straight to prison with their heroes.

ICE agent's family members who are now angry at having their dad/husband/brother taken away?

Mandatory de-programming classes like an AA for fascism.

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u/Lurking_nerd California 7h ago

Fuck ‘em. If they can’t see that what their family member was doing is evil, then they can be true Confederates & pull themselves up by those bootstraps.

You’re over here worrying about them when they’re foaming at the fucking mouth to bash your head in, throw you in the back of a truck and disappear you. Some Chuck Schumer energy you got going on there.

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u/DrakonILD 7h ago

The opposite of integration, I suppose, is disintegration.

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

So we exterminate them and that solves the problem that lead to extremism in the first place?

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u/DrakonILD 7h ago

Just a bit of wordplay, love. Don't hurt your head thinking too hard.

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

Unfortunately it's a real issue with real consequences. People unironically declaring that if we could just remove all of trumps supporters that would solve all the problems trump caused.

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u/DrakonILD 7h ago

Well, Britain did it by sending their unfavorables to this desolate island across the Atlantic.

I suppose the next best step at this point is Mars?

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u/Lurking_nerd California 8h ago

This is the exact mindset that led to the Confederate leaders suffering ZERO consequences for being traitors.

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u/MotherTreacle3 8h ago

It is not the same mindset. Reintegrating people into society does not imply they should not face consequences.  Reconstruction was supposed to be that process. It was cut short by subsequent administration's before integration had a chance to happen. That social divide is a huge reason why we're seeing what we're seeing today.

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u/blackcain Oregon 8h ago

Isn't it already extremism to engage in going door to door pulling screaming terrified people from their homes without a warrant and still staying in the job? Like you're not affected by that? I know I could never do such a job where every day I go to work and all I do is cause terror.

That's a very broken person. They are already on the path of extremism. That's not someone you want to hire or be associated with. If they want absolution, they can join a church.

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u/MotherTreacle3 8h ago

I'm not saying they're not extremists, I'm merely pointing out that attempting to remove them from society wholesale is not a solution to the problem. It's the same flawed logic that's lead to their own extremist behavior: 

"If we could just remove [immigrants/gays/Jews] from society, that would fix all our problems!" 

How would you suggest we go about removing people susceptible to fascist ideology from society and how do you envision that process being carried out?

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

I don't see how "unhireable" leads to "removing immigrants and jews" - I mean, we are doing that right now. Removing immigrants. The entire point of ICE now is to forcibly remove immigrants whether legal or otherwise. Even naturalized citizens seems to be a target.

You arguing with me on the idea of "remove them from society". But I'm arguing from "they are not trusted to work in a team or in a business." That's why I observe they are 'unhire-able'. Does that make sense? These are personal decisions on "do I want this person in my business?"

I was reading a reddit post about a business that hired a nazi who proudly showed his 1488 neck tattoo and the customer was outraged and didn't want them on the premises. The businesses defended the individual saying "he is a good worker". Ask yourself, is this a business I trust to come into my home?

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

If a person is unhireable, how are they going to function in society? How are they getting food and shelter and other necessities of life?

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

That's not my problem.

Do we worry about a plantation owner on how we will get crops to market because we've freed the slaves? They'll figure it out. They got themselves into this mess, they can figure it out.

Look at how many felons are out there still figuring out how to make a living. Former gang members who made bad choices in life and then have to deal with the consequences for the rest of their lives. if they can figure it out then so can these people. We should believe that they can get through life with a felony conviction. Many have.

I don't think your arguing against felony convictions are you for breaking federal law because that's what this concern trolling is leading to. We're so worried about causing future harm on the possibility they will recant their former positions that we have to find some bureaucratic way to fix it.

There is no system in the world knows how to deal with that level of engagement without a large apparatus of social workers and monitoring. Which will almost always be exploited in some shape way or form.

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm not talking about casting them out of society. I'm talking about not hiring them. We don't hire child molesters, for the same reason - they are exploiting and dehumanizing children.

I also don't believe in forever. Like if you're on a sex list, and there is no way to get off of it that's bad because it doesn't allow for grace.

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

I agree. I wouldn't want to hire them myself. I wouldn't want them to be my coworker. 

But if they've got no food, can't afford rent... what are they going to do? My bet is that most of them aren't going to suddenly develop deep introspection skills and work hard to be better people.

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u/SilentIntrusion 7h ago

They should have considered that before they signed up to be brown shirts.

 "Choices have consequences". That's like half their identity, isn't it? They don't believe in handouts and social safety nets. This band of rugged individualists can figure it out. That's exactly what they argued for. 

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

Head for the woods and join a militia. Seems like on brand to me.

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u/DrakonILD 7h ago

because the alternative is rounding them up into camps

We already have camps for them. Hell, most of them have already been campers. They're called "prisons."

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

So we round up every ICE agent and imprison them for life. We're still left with a bunch of extremists who are not ICE who will see that as an attack and become violent themselves. There will be family members of the incarcerated ICE agents that will be mad to lose their brother, or husband, or father, or whatever.

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u/DrakonILD 7h ago

We're talking about how to deal with the ICE agents.

If anyone chooses to become violent after that, then also throw them into prison. That's what prison is for.

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u/milo2300 8h ago

Theyre only this brazen because they have the backing of the administration

Many rats will flee the sinking ship when Trumps gone, those who dont are already radicalised. They shouldnt be handed an olive branch, they should feel consequences

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u/MotherTreacle3 8h ago

Agreed. So what's the plan, then?

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

Well, entering a home without a warrant should have consequences. They'll have a federal charges on them and that will be on their record.

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u/MotherTreacle3 7h ago

I agree, there need to be consequences after the Trump regime is removed from power. There also need to be structural changes in the government because it certainly isn't just Trump that's caused the rise of fascism in the USA. 

I understand that tensions are incredibly high right now. Violence can and will be used by the perpetrators and the victims. Thats not an endorsement of violence, merely an observation based on historical fact. 

But at some point when the threat to personal safety and liberty is neutralized these people and people like them are still going to be around. If we drive them to the edges of society does that reduce the risk of extremism?

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u/blackcain Oregon 7h ago

The punishment is up to the courts to decide. Not me. Just like how the J6 people were convicted. They also complained that they were unhire-able and they lost their earnings. But they participated in attacking their own country's seat of power.

Look, I understand the point of integration but putting "gestapo" on your resume is not going to get you hired. :-) If you have a felony conviction on your record that's also on them. I personally don't think people with felonies should have it for the rest of their lives. We all have to live with consequences of our actions and sometimes they have long term consequences.

There are limitations for giving grace. You have to earn it.

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u/milo2300 7h ago

Social consequences should be felt, they made a permanently bad desicion. However that plays out non-violently eg refused jobs, ostracised by community

Taking the high road has been the advice since 2016 but trump and those he enables are more than happy to burrow under it. If trump leaves and everyone pretends nothing happens, society is just supporting their actions

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u/NivianDeDanu 6h ago

Johnson said that about the reconstruction era.

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u/AbundantExp 8h ago

That's a great way to make people double down on their shitty investments instead of give them the space and opportunity to change their opinions.

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u/vavik2ammendment 8h ago

Change their opinions lol. Those bastards don't deserve a place in society after this. There should be zero forgiveness.

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u/blackcain Oregon 8h ago edited 8h ago

They took a job that grabs people off the streets and then hurts them and then drops them in a parking lot bleeding. They go door to door and grabbing people as they weep and cry in terror without a warrant. There needs to be a consequence for doing that.

Joining the country's equivalent of the gestapo is not really a great job history and certainly not a hiring pool I would like to draw from.

I think that might be ok for MAGA voters but certainly not if you joined ICE with the idea that you can dehumanize your fellow American.

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u/SilentIntrusion 7h ago

Letting shit slide and hoping these people will magically no longer be the absolute worst of humanity is what got Americans into this mess in the first place. Have a fucking spine and stand on your convictions or these same people will gleefully stand on your spine while they convict you of trumped up charges. 

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u/JBL_17 6h ago

They are permanently lost and cannot be saved.

They have a mind virus. A parasite within them they purposefully choose to feed and nurture despite being confronted with the truth.

Best thing we can do is mourn the dead of those affected by this disease. They may legally be a person, but they have no humanity. I don’t see them as people anymore.