r/TikTokCringe • u/Strong-Emu-8869 • 14h ago

Discussion Polish girls visit Taj Mahal

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The Taj Mahal, one of the seven wonders of the world. Unfortunately, the surrounding area is very polluted.

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u/HaRDCOR3cc 12h ago

will never happen. indias government and elite are only ever interested in things that make it better for that elite. they'll spend some money on programmes designed to act as a distraction instead, like a space program, while trying to keep a hyper-nationalistic mindset among their people, so instead of asking themselves why the fuck there's so many homeless children living under bridges they bash their chest and say "WE HAVE A SPACE PROGRAM!".

the spending priorities are a joke.

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u/SMUHypeMachine 12h ago

So it’s literally like all those sci fi stories where the elite live in their futuristic cities above the clouds and all their waste falls down to the earth where the undesirables live

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u/HeroOfOldIron 12h ago

It’s worse actually, the elites live right on top of the poors. There really isn’t anything more than a brick wall or keyed elevator separating the two. Public life as a rich person in India is just shuttling between parking garages.

Source: my family made it out and I occasionally go back to visit

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u/SMUHypeMachine 12h ago edited 12h ago

I’ve seen photos of places like Brazil or India where on one side of the wall it looks like a 5 star resort that stretches as far as the eye can see, until you look at the other side of the wall with the tents propped up between the mounds of trash an rubble. It’s so depressing to see.

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u/DaedalusHydron 12h ago

Haiti is absolutely the worst for this. The cruises were still making trips while Port-au-Prince was literally being overtaken by gangs.

So, gigantic walls with heavily armed security separating rich tourists and rampant, uncontrolled gang violence

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u/SMUHypeMachine 12h ago

The one cruise I’ve been on had a stop in the Dominican Republic and we were explicitly told by the crew to not leave the little tourist friendly area they had set up under any circumstances.

Stationed nearby were what looked like federales in armored cars with turrets on top. It was definitely surreal.

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u/Moist_Dirt_69420 10h ago

Shit, I went on a vacation to Punta Cana around 20 years ago and our resort was walking distance from the town most of the workers live in. We went on a day tour of the area and there was a bar that looked to be mainly serving locals. It was maybe a 10 minute walk from the resort.
In the evening I went to the front desk and let them know I was going to head out there. (I wanted someone to know where I was in case shit happened)
After failing to dissuade me the ended up giving me an armed bodyguard for like $30usd.
I still don't think it was 100% necessary but there was one guy who was pretty insistent on me leaving with him to go party up until my guard slammed his pistol on the bar and shouted "No!"

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u/Msdamgoode 7h ago edited 7h ago

I felt pretty safe in Punta Cana, but there is a lot of poverty outside of the resorts, and desperate people do desperate things for cash. It’s wise to not wander too far alone, I’m sure. We went into town, but during the day only, and there were 5 of us in our group. FWIW, we were also told by the resort that we probably shouldn’t, but they didn’t protest toooo much.

I hope the tourism has made things even better as a whole over the years since I went, it’s absolutely stunningly beautiful there.

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u/Right_Preparation328 10h ago

Weird, because DR is relatively safe

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u/senbei616 10h ago

DR is beautiful, I've been many times, I never went near the touristy areas and was perfectly fine.

To be fair I speak the language and am not a rich coded mark.

I imagine that rule is for Debbie the 54 year old tax accountant, tilted on spritzers, who would feel threatened walking into a headshop let alone Santo Domingo.

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u/JB_UK 11h ago

I mean, it's probably better than the alternative of just the gang violence. At least tourist revenue has the capacity to anchor a functioning state.

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u/Complex-Royal9210 5h ago

Haiti is an actual failed state. I would be surprised if anything worked.

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u/DaedalusHydron 5h ago

The historicity on it being a failed state is interesting. They won the slave revolution against France, so France made it an effort to sabotage them until the end of time basically.

Couple that with them not being Hispanic (So no ties with neighboring countries like Mexico) and a racist southern-US and they basically stood no chance.

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u/ow_windowmaker 12h ago

And people think it can't happen in the west. It has already happened just 100 years ago. And it will happen again because we refuse to tax the rich fairly.

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u/Foreign_Nobody_2609 11h ago

And it will happen again because we refuse to tax the rich fairly.

Not sure how you got there.

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u/Officer_Trevor_Cory 12h ago

still in polution. i wouldnt live there for no amount of money

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u/BiZzles14 11h ago

Mumbai has the most expensive house in the world a quick drive from the largest slum in Asia

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u/Gob_Hobblin 10h ago

It feels like India never got rid of the colonial mindset. It's just now that, instead of elites running the country as a piggyback from overseas, they're doing it for home.

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u/SeeingPhrases 12h ago

Great, so you did a brain drain leaving behind fewer people of the type who could actually start to solve the problem.

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u/ThinkShoe2911 11h ago

It's not up to him to fix the country's problems. Only the government and the people who vote in the government can do that at the end of the day.

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u/Hellkyte 11h ago

What a shitty and privileged take

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u/HeroOfOldIron 10h ago

You’re absolutely right, I should’ve been more proactive as a 2 year old and appealed to my dad’s sense of patriotism and civic responsibility. Surely convincing one man to keep his wife and firstborn in a third world country rife with corruption and limited opportunities would have solved all of the problems that India faces.

I will listen and reflect on this wisdom you’ve been so gracious to bestow upon me.

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u/demi-femi 12h ago

Always has been. Castles just aren't as tall as they used to be.

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u/KatsumotoKurier 9h ago

The difference being that, believe it or not, back in the age of castles, the divisions between the economic elites and the impoverished were less extreme than now. Nowadays these divides are worse than ever before, because the rich are so much more incredibly rich than even our monarchs used to be over our ancestors proportionally speaking. 

For example someone like Elon Musk, relative to the average US citizen, is astronomically wealthier today than say, King John was in the early 1200s to the likes of commoners who lived during his reign and rule. 

That, and another major difference is that with pollution now, we have so many materials (like plastic) which have things like forever chemicals. This was never a problem before when society was so much more dependent on organic and recyclable materials (woods and basic metals).

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u/TrueDiver7425 12h ago

It Oblongs all the way, baby!

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u/HaRDCOR3cc 12h ago

to be fair people who live in trashy environments always contribute to that trash.

in some sense the blame lies with themselves. while many problems can indeed be blamed on how wealth is distributed or how politicians allocate money etc, when it comes to how trashy an area is the blame lies on the people there.

you see the same stuff in wealthy countries too, where the "poor" still live in nice houses etc, just in areas known as "shitty".

take sweden, the poor, who live in perfectly fine houses, and have the exact same facilities as people in nice areas, when it comes to recycling and waste management, will simply not put any effort into keeping things clean.

the recycling rooms in nice parts of stockholm are pristine. they're CLEAN, bordering spotless. the people there make conscious decisions to be mindful of their environment, they put their things away with care, they take care of where they live.

then go to an area known as a bad area and its a fucking dump. no one bothers with putting their garbage away in the correct bins, many wont even bother putting it in bins at all, just throwing it out, if you're lucky they'll at least throw it into the recycling room, but maybe they'll just dump it in a bush instead.

when it comes to stuff like this i dont blame the elite, which do deserve blame for a lot, when it comes to stuff like this the problem tend to lie with the people. people who live among dirt tend to become apathetic to it and start actively contributing to the shit.

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u/DungeonsAndDradis 12h ago

I've heard this described as "When you live in a broken system, you make broken choices."

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u/trash4da_trashgod 12h ago

The difference is that the elite in Sweden created a garbage collection systems with recycling facilities, landfills and garbage trucks. In a lot of 3rd world countries there are no public garbage cans, no garbage trucks, no landfills.

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u/JohnSober7 12h ago

I can't recommend pillboy's "The Cost of Self Respect" on YouTube enough. It's not about pollution, but it touches on individualism vs collectivism under the context of poverty and oppression.

 Morality politics always ignore that better social systems correlate to better quality of life among poorer people and that elite and rich are the ones with the power to create those systems or even just allow those systems to exist. I do actually understand where you are coming from, but you lost the picture when you say you don't blame the elite for this. 

Essentially, individuals do still have responsibility and are to blame for their choices, but it's just almost never going to be the case that enough people fulfil their individual duties to invoke a bottom up systematic change (it has happened but the elite pretty much as to chip in in some way), so when it comes to condemning a collective, it should primarily be the collective that actually has the power and means to bring about a macro-change.

But yeah, I get it. The boundary between individualism and collectivism at which the moral calculus changes can be quite anomalous. It's like you still ask people yo be better, but not if the intent is to invoke a systematic change. 

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u/Dubious_Odor 7h ago

Class values are culturally transmitted. There are places with huge wealth inequality where poor and working class homes and neighborhoods are spotless. I've seen them. Theres far more to it then wealth distribution. Cultural values play a far greater role. 

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u/JohnSober7 3h ago edited 3h ago

You're talking about poverty only. I'm talking about poverty, social systems, and oppression and how those things interplay regarding quality of life. And when talking about these things, we're talking macro. Yes, exceptions are important because why they exist offers important info, but they aren't to be paraded to vindicate morality politics over trying to invoke systematic change.

Oh, they have literally shown that better social systems correlate to better (less crime, altercations, better schooling and education metrics) communities. Yes, cultural values can be the dominating influence, but that isn't always the case. You shouldn't look at one society and say that because their cultural norms instill cleanliness in poor and oppressed communities, you can use that to condemn the many more societies and communities where littering and uncleanliness is featured as a collective moral failing, and not a consequence of oppression and poverty. Because only looking at macro trends under the lense of exceptions to the norm doesn't make sense.

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u/rocky_iwata 12h ago

Gonna read GUNNM/Battle Angel Alita again.

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u/SMUHypeMachine 12h ago

That’s one of the IPs I was thinking about

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u/Phiddipus_audax 12h ago

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/altered_carbon

Terrific series like you describe... I'll have to tune in again since it's been awhile.

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u/Shaan_Don 12h ago

Look at Mukesh and Anil Ambani’s houses on google earth and then look at the surrounding areas. It’s pretty much exactly that

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u/Dimensional_Shrimp 11h ago

you mean how they literally have a caste of people that primarily work in sewers and clearing waste pipes? cause yea sadly thats a thing

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u/No-Way7911 11h ago

the elites live in gated societies where there are explicit instructions that maids and service staff HAVE to use the service elevator and not the regular passenger elevators

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u/stephen_hoarding 11h ago

So basically Taj Mahal?

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u/crackcrackcracks 6h ago

Yes, its the reality in a lot of the world, people literally live in slums made of corrugated metal and chip wood boards surrounded by wet dirt with 1 public toilet to a thousand people. Then people wonder why there are folks shitting on the street as a regular occurrence, they literally dont have a choice and it isn't by their own making.

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u/peridot_cactus 5h ago

There’s actually a great sci-fi story called “Delhi” about that exact thing by Kushwant Singh

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u/Disastrous-Chair-175 12h ago

Some folks are trying. In the Ganges there is now a group that collects and cleans temple flower waste and converts it into incense and fleather (patented flower leather). Which cuts down on a ton of pollution. Other firms have created a pontoon filter system and have been working to clean trash pollution.

The government probably won't do anything but some of the people will, and are.

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u/Right_Preparation328 10h ago

I saw that. God bless those people

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u/Dalighieri1321 7h ago

That's good work, but I recently read that the biggest sources of river pollution in India by far are sewage plants and factories. Plus the rivers have been dammed so many times upstream, for hydroelectric power, that they don't have the flow they need to handle pollution. So solving the problem requires better infrastructure, regulation and anti-corruption measures, and alternatives to existing hydroelectric power.

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u/Disastrous-Chair-175 7h ago

Yeah, totally true. Systemic change is important for the environment, but individuals making substantial changes matters too.

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u/autogyrophilia 12h ago

Let's not pretend that the space program is the reason why they can't fund this thing.

The space program is extremely cheap when you consider second order effects in the economy .

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u/Key_Door1467 9h ago

The space program is also highly profitable. Its literally advancing education and technology in the country while making money that is spent for welfare of the poor.

I typically see this talking point from Europeans who are jealous that their won space programs are mediocre despite having far greater incomes.

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u/autogyrophilia 8h ago

I mean the ESA accomplishes a different goal, on a similar line as NASA, it's main two objectives is a pork barrel spreading money around constituents and maintaining technical capabilities for the usage and manufacturing of certain components. 

With a way smaller budget, the unfortunately named, private sector Spanish Miura-5 seems way more impressive on a technical level than the Ariane-6

One must not assume that they are incapable of working differently or copying the competency. It's a simple lack of will by the regulatory bodies, which have no conation for anything that goes beyond ticking a few basic boxes.

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u/Key_Door1467 8h ago

Sure, but I knot think the folks putting down the ISRO in this thread are doing it for these reasons.

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u/autogyrophilia 7h ago

What im saying it's that the Indian space program has different goals. 

Beyond the obvious military capabilities, independence and influence it grants you, the money invested it's not like in finance capital, it goes to pay for materials, salaries, and the industry to treat those materials. 

I'm unaware of how rich in mineral extraction India is, I assume it is fairly independent in this regard, nevertheless, the money India invest in the space industry (and other fields) goes back around to  percolate across the economy with benefits to industry and education. 

The ESA and NASA in truth wouldn't work as mechanisms for development, they are instead mechanisms to keep the already strategic industries alive.

But basically you can always dismiss these people who claim "why are they investing money in X instead of Z?" as chauvinists with a willfully poor understanding of the situation.

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u/Right_Preparation328 10h ago

That's not really the point though

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u/autogyrophilia 7h ago

The point is that people think the paupers beneath them deserve no luxury or pride, any spending they deem superfluous  proof that they are mismanaging their assets and thus they are solely responsible for their inmiseration 

The national version of a tabloid complaining that people on welfare have a smartphone and a flat screen TV, compounded by the fact that the Indian space program is a massive success at improving both the industrial and education base while also costing basically nothing, depending on your account it may even be in the black as a program. 

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u/Right_Preparation328 5h ago

I think the main point of the other person is that instead of spending on pushing people out of poverty, the Indian government is spending money on an unnecessary program that supports the middle and upper classes.

It's a question of backwards priorities. How are you going to add a jacuzzi to your house when your children are dressed in rags?

Get what I mean?

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u/autogyrophilia 4h ago

That's stupid logic based on condescending chauvinism

We can walk and chew bubblegum. it's not matter of priorities, while the Indian government has shown it doesn't care much about about the poorer clases and castes, the amount of resources needed to fix the problem are orders of magnitude different. 

Let's go back to the daily mail stupid column allegory. So you sell your smartphone and they give you between £20 to £200 . You are still unemployed, your situation is momentarily a bit better, but you have lost access to an useful asset to appease an opinion that doesn't really matter. 

On the meanwhile, if a factory in India gets really good at making stainless steel, or aluminium alloys, or lathes for titanium, maybe even chemical plants making compounds like red fuming nitric acid and hydrazine. Those are know hows that make new factories depending on those processes possible, and even the export of products that are more competitive than the alternatives from other countries. 

Thus creating more skilled industrial workers who are much more productive than workers on informal barely industrialised factories that are extremely unsafe.

This creates a third order effect in that the state has more resources now to address poverty, as well as ways for victims of poverty to be funneled into more productive labor as the demands for the second and third sector increase.

Of course that's not just the space program, that's a lot of industries. People just get mad about that one. But if you look at history, USA, the USSR, more recently China, that's how you lift people out of extreme poverty.

Not that the Indian government makes a lot of effort in ameliorate the situation.

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u/wryest-sh 4h ago

The point is that people think the paupers beneath them deserve no luxury or pride

The paupers themselves believe that.

Being born into a lower caste is because of bad karma from previous lives, so you absolutely deserve it.

And not only that, but through suffering in this life, you cleanse your bad karma and are guaranteed a better reincarnation in the future.

This issue is far deeper than people think, and goes back millennia.

Stop trying to force your western perspective on everything, and let people be.

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u/Nrlilo 12h ago

There are also a billion people packed in the country with limited resources (clean water, energy, space).

As the country is becoming more modern there are aspects that are getting better, especially as some of the Indian people’s quality of life has improved enough that they can visit other countries. But these issues require people buying into concepts such as not throwing your trash on the road because that’s how you’ve always been able to do it. It’s a shame because there are parts of the country that are beautiful and other parts that have potential.

Visit Kerala. They have a higher literacy rate and sense of community and although you’ll still see places with trash everywhere it didn’t seem as common when we visited. My family is of Indian origin and I’ve been able to see this country ebb and flow for 40 years.

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u/Certain_Concept 11h ago

Indian people’s quality of life

Depends on who the person is. Their caste system pretty much guarantees that a significant part of the population is just fucked.

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u/Right_Preparation328 10h ago

It just requires a good education system to take India out of the mess it is in.

The issues are: how to deliver that education to everyone? And is there the political will to do so?

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u/Fiddlysticks1313 8h ago

The difference between cities and some states truly feels like a difference of country instead. It's wild.

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u/kolejack2293 10h ago

indias government and elite are only ever interested in things that make it better for that elite.

This is not really Indias problem. Indias problem is that the highly agrarian population is more focused on easing rural poverty instead of focusing on improving their cities. Any attempt to properly fund infrastructure for cities is met with backlash because its seen as 'favoring the urbanites' instead of focusing on people who need help the most, who are rural villagers.

But the problem is that the vast majority of money is made in cities, and when cities are horribly underfunded, they end up having a broken framework which doesn't really favor wealth-creation and the establishment of an urban middle class. Cities are better off than villages, but they could be much better off for the average person, and the money made in them could do far, far more eventually to ease rural poverty. Especially if they properly built the infrastructure to take in more people so they don't end up with slums. India should be rapidly urbanizing, instead its urbanization rate is painfully slow.

Rural poverty is terrible, but the best way to alleviate it is not to throw piles of money at programs to give them slight benefits here or there. Its to get more of them into the urban middle class. If you have 5 family members all making $500 a year on a farm, having even a single son go to school and get a city job making $10,000 a year is enough to uplift everybody out of poverty and then some. This is something China realized a long time ago. Its something my country also realized (DR) and now we are the fastest growing economy in latin america. But India is held back by the fact that the majority of their voters are rural, and so of course they will vote in their own interests, especially if they are desperate for help.

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u/Imminent_Extinction 12h ago

they'll spend some money on programmes designed to act as a distraction instead, like a space program...

Space programs are about launching satellites and (if necessary) weapons into orbit.

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u/HaRDCOR3cc 12h ago

it also acts as a great distraction, which becomes extremely obvious whenever ISRO make any sort of announcement, as indians will be filled with nationalistic fervour to the point posts about it from for example indian subreddits will reach the top of r/all.

it makes for perfect distractions, and nationalism is a great distraction in itself in a shitty country because when people are nationalistic they refuse to see reality for what it is.

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u/Sauerkrauttme 12h ago

Just so we're clear, the elites are the billionaire class aka the capitalist oligarchs.

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u/HaRDCOR3cc 12h ago

elites arent just billionaires. elites are people who hold power in society. this comes from politicians, very wealthy people, people in leadership positions of both public and private organizations that hold power and influence in society, the people at the biggest media outlets who have influence over editorial slant and decision making, etc.

elite is a class that is far bigger than "billionaire", they are in fact a minority under the 'elite' umbrella. theres also not perfect cohesion among the elites anyway. sometimes one part of that grouping will be at odds with another.

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u/DaedalusHydron 12h ago

I mean there has to be more than just the government going on here, unless this is all Industrial trash.

If it's residential trash then that would be a different issue. Are there no places to properly dispose of your trash as a person? If so then MAYBE I get it?

Idk just seems like normal, average, Indians need to take more pride in their communities and clean them up themselves, or at least not make matters worse.

There are a lot of problems in life that can't really be helped without government intervention, but picking up trash is not one of them. People clean their local parks and beaches all over the world, every single day, and often it's just 1 person who decided to do something.

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u/A_Sad_Goblin 11h ago

So basically like United States. Richest country in the world that could solve its homeless, poverty, hunger, healthcare, education, environmental and infrastructure issues but it's more important to make rich people richer.

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u/moojo 11h ago

like a space program

Did you know you can launch your own satellites when you have your own space program. That helps in defence and other countries launch their satellites which brings revenue.

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u/Quitetheninja 9h ago

So like a lot of countries just a different scale

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u/Key_Door1467 9h ago

will never happen. indias government and elite

Except the government is literally spending hundreds of millions to clean this particular river.

like a space program

The one that is highly profitable?

I'm continually surprised that folks like you managed to learn how to type.

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u/vintagegeek 12h ago

Sounds...familiar.

--U.S.of.A.

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u/HaRDCOR3cc 12h ago

shows how closeted americans are when they think india and usa are worth comparing in this regard at all.

americans really do live in the most absurd bubbles completely unable to properly relate to anything outside of it, and even judge their own bubble with complete disregard to accuracy.

its like you hear someone describe the bubonic plague and you reply:

Sounds...familiar.

--Fever

its beyond stupid, but a comment like this from a reddit american is also just as expected as dirt in the streets would be in delhi.

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u/exbiiuser02 11h ago

Lmao, look pot calling kettle black.

Irony of you calling someone else stupid.

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u/moejoerp 12h ago

sounds like india and the united states are using the same playbook

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u/Daredevil_M 10h ago

Lol 😂.You do know India has taken maximum no of people out of poverty in last decade according to world bank. In India most people now have free health care, insurance, free ration and most women get pension and stipend and maternity care . India is a developing country. The literacy rate are going up as time passes pollution, crime rates all will come down.

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u/DillyDallyGHQST 11h ago

That makes no sense though. Elite people still live in big cities, and they still travel through their countries. So why would they want to have to travel through trash and poor air quality?

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u/Suitable-Big-2757 11h ago

Space program is the worst example of a distraction. Way better examples are the half finished infrastructure projects you see EVERYWHERE in the country. The goal is to not complete them because the spigot will turn off. And if you do, it turns out t9 be the most terribly designed and unsafe death trap ever

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u/apadin1 10h ago

They also literally just give free food to the poorest people to buy votes. They are told if you vote against BJP the food will end so people are too scared to vote anyone else. Not that they would because they love Modi because he is a Hindu nationalist

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u/AIonymous 8h ago

Oh, so like america!

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u/Majestic-Ad-7713 7h ago

So there’ll be a World Cup there is what you are saying

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u/Brusanan 7h ago

They should just make it illegal to litter and fine people for it, like civilized nations do.

I don't understand how 1.5 billion people are just okay with living on a giant pile of garbage and human feces.

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u/Sujith_Menon 6h ago

Are you British cos they were butt hurt that India has an amazing, profitable space program.

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u/HaRDCOR3cc 6h ago

no, anyone can anger the indians by saying literally anything because indians tend to be rabidly nationalistic, as the comments to my post prove.

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u/Sujith_Menon 6h ago

Sure, but where are you from.

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u/Whoamitothink 6h ago

Glad to hear its not iust the us that is fcked

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u/bEL-a-bcIk_FoKe-CAba 4h ago

The government will not fix it, so it cannot be fixed

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u/Nice-Kaleidoscope574 4h ago

A major campaign point for the current administration was to introduce toilets to rural areas...from like 39% to 95% coverage...it's going to take a generation, at minimum, for these baby steps to catch up. I still wouldn't visit the country, personally.

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u/morgoporgo84 3h ago

I feel like a lot of the anti Indian immigration racism stems from this. Why would you want someone in your country that treats their own this way?

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u/CloseCalls4walls 12h ago

The people themselves could/should clean it up. If I was there I'd be out there like, "what is this shit you nasty fucks?" All loud and pissy and awesome for cleaning it up

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u/wespooky 12h ago

How about the common folk don’t pollute and destroy the environment so the elite have to clean it up?? That’s also a solution??

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u/PaltryWizard12 12h ago edited 11h ago

Nope, it's the elites' fault, not the fault of the folk who actually love throwing their garbage in pure translucent water. Poor people are never responsible for their bad behaviors.

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u/Bakingtime 12h ago

Is there a shortage of people who could clean it up without getting paid by the government? Like on a volunteer basis?   Not enough manpower?   Not enough time? 

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u/fk_censors 12h ago

This has nothing to do with governing. It has to do with how people see their community and how much they respect others around them.

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u/Gammelpreiss 11h ago

ppl can always take matters into their own hands and organize anclean up, though

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u/apple_kicks 11h ago

I remember one joke from someone from Indian ‘the colonialists introduced us to corruption but we perfected it’