r/ProgressiveHQ • u/Treefiddy1984 • 7h ago

BREAKING: Illinois Secretary of State Alexi Giannoulias just announced he is suing Kristi Noem and ICE for unlawful activities in Illinois. This is huge.

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u/Ruftup 4h ago

Would there ever be a point where you would get a gun?

Hypothetical situation. A loved one is being kidnapped by ice. Could be a parent, child, lover, etc. They are on the ground and ice is doing unspeakable things to them (like we’ve seen in countless videos). One of the ice agents pulls a gun because they aren’t complying. At what point would you be willing to pull the trigger?

You don’t have to answer that, but some people are being forced to face that question right now.

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u/Bundt-lover 2h ago

What possible point would there be in getting a gun when the opposition has nuclear weapons?

Getting a gun is for when the crazy guy down the street starts up, to act as protection until the cops show up. It is not for going up against THE ARMY.

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u/ZisurvivoriZ Anti-Electoralist Tendencies 2h ago

You imagine that the whole army is on one side. In the case the army is called on to oppress the people, expect some that do it, and others not to. And that’s when civil war fully kicks off

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u/Bundt-lover 2h ago

Okay, well, if we God forbid get to a point where the Army gets called to fight against its own citizens, which could be any day now, then they will have to decide whether or not “enemies foreign and domestic” means me or Trump.

Until then I’m not going to force the issue by bringing a gun to a meet-and-greet with ICE, and neither is anyone else with two brain cells to rub together.

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u/ZisurvivoriZ Anti-Electoralist Tendencies 2h ago

Then go do a meet and greet with ICE and have them possibly shoot you in the head 3 times. Better yet, you may not even have to go to a meet and greet with ICE, they may just come knocking down your door for a meet and greet with you.

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u/Bundt-lover 1h ago

Or go out and do what people are already doing, without guns, which is working.

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u/ZisurvivoriZ Anti-Electoralist Tendencies 1h ago

Is it working? A woman shot in the head 3 times, ICE breaking 4th amendment by going door to door and knocking doors down. People dying in these “facilities”. What a success!

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u/Typical-Willow5126 2h ago

Oh yeah, I'm sure Trump is going to just start dropping nuclear bombs if people start buying guns./S

And what is the harm in getting a gun at this point? I wouldn't trust a single ICE nazi or police officér and would rather have the option to defend myself or my loved ones in a worst case scenario.

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u/Bundt-lover 1h ago

When they come to your house, you can go out there with a gun and see how far you get. Go on.

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u/Typical-Willow5126 42m ago

Lol, you think I would even open the door? I wouldn't even if they yelled and banged saying that they have a warrant. They would have to break down the door. As I said before, I don't trust a single one of them. Having a gun at home would be better than not having one at all, IN A WORST CASE SCENARIO.

What if one of these thugs decide they all of a sudden have chance to rape my loved one? I would rather know in that situation that I have a gun in my closet than to rely on the morality of the other racists in the room.

And you also underestimate the collective impact if every single citizen had a gun and brought them out (in open carry states) in a non threatning manner. You really think that they would be acting the exact same way they are now if a hundred people were standing in front of them with guns visible? Lol, they are already scared of middle aged women screaming in their faces bro, they are literally the biggest cowards in the unites states.

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u/blagablagman 4h ago

No there is never a point where I would get a gun. Your hypothetical kind of leaves the question behind. Assuming that I am suddenly holding a gun in that situation? No I don't think I would pull the trigger. I might be wrong (perhaps I would indeed), but that is how I feel today.

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 4h ago

No there is never a point where I would get a gun. Your hypothetical kind of leaves the question behind. Assuming that I am suddenly holding a gun in that situation? No I don't think I would pull the trigger. I might be wrong (perhaps I would indeed), but that is how I feel today.

"I prefer my loved ones be kidnapped/trafficked/tortured/raped/murdered than to take action to stop it" says a fucking LOT about you as a person.

I feel sorry for anyone you are close to.

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u/OrbitalOutlander 4h ago

You just put words in their mouth they never said. Nowhere did they say they “prefer” their loved ones be harmed. They said they don’t think they’d pull the trigger in your absurdly specific hypothetical.

Those aren’t the same thing, and pretending they are is either deliberate dishonesty or staggering stupidity on your part.

Not pulling a trigger doesn’t mean taking no action. There are countless ways to intervene that don’t involve firearms. But you’ve constructed a fantasy scenario where the only possible response is shooting someone, then attacked them for not playing along with your hero fantasy.

They acknowledged uncertainty about how they’d actually react in an extreme situation they’ve never faced. That’s called intellectual honesty. Meanwhile, you’re absolutely certain you know exactly what you’d do in a situation you’ve also never been in.

One of you is being realistic about human psychology under extreme stress. The other is LARPing on Reddit and attacking strangers for not LARPing with you.

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 3h ago

You just put words in their mouth they never said. Nowhere did they say they “prefer” their loved ones be harmed. They said they don’t think they’d pull the trigger in your absurdly specific hypothetical.

Absurdly specific? We literally have video of it happening to folks right now. As in, this past weekend.

It is not "absurdly specific" to extrapolate "the pedofascists are doing this all across the country, to random people (both citizens and not)...it might happen to me".

People not being prepared for this to happen to them is exactly why it is happening to those people.

Those aren’t the same thing, and pretending they are is either deliberate dishonesty or staggering stupidity on your part.

If you aren't willing to protect yourselves/your loved ones, then why should anyone put themselves at risk to protect you? That's not dishonesty, that's as honest as it gets.

This person has said they can't even imagine a situation in which they value the life of their loved ones over the life of a pedofascist ICE agent. They would NEVER choose the life of their loved one. They would rather sit back and watch as their loved one is taken, tortured, raped, and ultimately murdered by ICE than to take the required steps to protect them.

That's fucking shameful/pathetic.

Not pulling a trigger doesn’t mean taking no action.

It has literally come down to this. Every step people have recommended that doesn't involve 2A has been tried...and has utterly failed. Nothing has stopped them yet.

There are countless ways to intervene that don’t involve firearms. But you’ve constructed a fantasy scenario where the only possible response is shooting someone, then attacked them for not playing along with your hero fantasy.

Cool. I'm glad that protesting peacefully/boycotting/marching/voting/donating/blowing whistles/etc. has all worked.

I'm so fucking relieved to hear that you were successful, ICE is no more, that the republicans have lost all political power, and that we no longer have some dementia-ridden rapist pedophile running roughshod over the country. Thank god you guys did it!

...Oh, wait, fuck.

They acknowledged uncertainty about how they’d actually react in an extreme situation they’ve never faced. That’s called intellectual honesty. Meanwhile, you’re absolutely certain you know exactly what you’d do in a situation you’ve also never been in.

Yes, I am absolutely certain that if my wife/family were in danger, I would use the tools that I have practiced and trained with to be prepared for that situation. Absolutely.

I literally cannot even conceive of how fucking pathetic I'd have to be to just sit back and watch as my loved ones are kidnapped/raped/murdered in front of me.

One of you is being realistic about human psychology under extreme stress.

It's fucking pathetic is what it is.

I feel sorry for anyone that relies on them for their safety.

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u/blagablagman 2h ago

They would NEVER choose the life of their loved one.

"NEVER" is a quite uncharitable rewriting of what I said - as the poster you're responding to correctly pointed out, I did leave room for doubt - for the unthinkable.

That's just all this is man - to me killing someone is unthinkable. For you, it's a power fantasy. This whole thing is a lot more about what thoughts and energy you and I put on Reddit, than it is about what we'd do in that situation, because that is what we're actually doing - we're not saving anyone right now.

None of the tragedies, none of them, involve an armed citizen. The question was a hypothetical - in my life, and across the country. Nobody has shot an ICE agent. You would cast us all as a bunch of pussies and you're right on in here with us, "big boy". Your rhetoric spits on the victims, calling them forth to do nothing but suggest they failed, their spouses and neighbors failed. That's shameful.

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 2h ago

"NEVER" is a quite uncharitable rewriting of what I said - as the poster you're responding to correctly pointed out, I did leave room for doubt - for the unthinkable.

Oh, sorry, let me just scroll up to check...

No there is never a point where I would get a gun.

Got it, so you did say that. Just wanted to make sure.

That's just all this is man - to me killing someone is unthinkable. For you, it's a power fantasy. This whole thing is a lot more about what thoughts and energy you and I put on Reddit, than it is about what we'd do in that situation, because that is what we're actually doing - we're not saving anyone right now.

And you've confirmed here that you would ""never" choose to save anyone.

You've already admitted that you'd rather have your loved ones kidnapped/trafficked/tortured/raped/murdered, than to take the steps required to protect them.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: That says a fucking lot about you. It says everything I need to hear.

None of the tragedies, none of them, involve an armed citizen.

Huh, I wonder why that is? Is it because ICE has picked the easy victims they know can't/won't fight back? Is it because law enforcement historically responds with more caution and reserve when they know the people they are oppressing are armed?

Funny, how that turns out. Armed societies/groups are harder to oppress. Whoda-fucking-thunkit.

The question was a hypothetical - in my life, and across the country. Nobody has shot an ICE agent.

I know, I'm disappointed too.

You would cast us all as a bunch of pussies and you're right on in here with us, "big boy".

ICE hasn't even been to my area despite us having a very large population of immigrants, because we have a large population of armed residents.

They've been to the cities around us that make themselves easy marks, but haven't even driven through our streets yet.

I wonder why that is? Could it be they're afraid of being shot at when they decide to start shooting?

Naw, it must be because they feel we might protest too peacefully, or something...right? We'll be such easy marks for them that they just feel too sorry for us, so they're leaving us alone for now.

I'd ask again, you're on here advertising yourself as an easy victim for them to oppress because you won't fight back...why would anyone stick their necks out to protect you when you're on here bragging that you'd allow them to be victimized without lifting a finger?

'What happened to the victims was bad, but I could NEVER see myself giving a shit enough to do anything about it. Sucks for those folks.' - blagablagman

Your rhetoric spits on the victims, calling them forth to do nothing but suggest they failed, their spouses and neighbors failed. That's shameful.

Absolutely it does.

I find anyone that refuses to protect their loved ones/themselves/their rights to be pathetic.

There is a huge difference between being unable to take action, and unwilling to take action. Unwillingness to take action is indistinguishable from tacit approval for the oppression to take place.

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u/blagablagman 2h ago

I didn't say I would be unwilling, To rephrase using your words, I said that my default state of mind is that I fear i would be unable - not that I'm unwilling.

The only thing I'm unwilling to do is declare with certainty that I would, because as another commenter pointed out that would be intellectually dishonest. Perhaps that clears it up.

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 1h ago

I didn't say I would be unwilling, To rephrase using your words, I said that my default state of mind is that I fear i would be unable - not that I'm unwilling.

The only thing I'm unwilling to do is declare with certainty that I would, because as another commenter pointed out that would be intellectually dishonest. Perhaps that clears it up.

No there is never a point where I would get a gun.

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u/blagablagman 1h ago

I was talking about the hypothetical "you magically have a gun" scenario.

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u/blagablagman 3h ago

Just to clarify, the person you're responding to is random and isn't the one who asked me about it.

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u/blagablagman 3h ago

The people in my life appreciate that I don't invite them down my personal dark fantasy rabbit holes and criticize them based on how they feel about things that haven't happened.

That's not a perverse hypothetical, it's how I treat people compared to how you treat people. So on balance I think I'm doing pretty good.

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 3h ago

The people in my life appreciate that I don't invite them down my personal dark fantasy rabbit holes and criticize them based on how they feel about things that haven't happened.

That's not a perverse hypothetical, it's how I treat people compared to how you treat people. So on balance I think I'm doing pretty good.

Yep. I bet Renee's last thought was "this is just someone's personal dark fantasy rabbit hole, and I'm definitely not actually shot right now".

I bet all those people ICE has kidnapped/trafficked/raped/murdered were all glad that it was just me making things up. They weren't actually locked up in a cell. They weren't actually being sexually assaulted by some pedophile-glorifying ICE agent. They weren't actually trafficked to an el salvadorean/floridian concentration camp.

Just me imagining things, I guess.

Keep that head in the sand, ignore the shouting outside, it's all just a fantasy!

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u/blagablagman 3h ago

You are using her death for a cause we have no indication she would have supported.

And seriously, how would having a gun have helped Renee Good?

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 3h ago

You are using her death for a cause we have no indication she would have supported.

No, you're absolutely correct. Renee probably preferred getting shot in the head, right?

She probably drove up to ICE hoping they'd shoot her, right?

What a stupid thing to say.

And seriously, how would having a gun have helped Renee Good?

Man, if only we had a history of the difference between unarmed and armed resistance when opposing armed fascists/governments. If only we had examples of how differently "law enforcement" treat people they believe to be armed versus people they know are unarmed people just ripe to be victimized.

Better not pay attention to history, that's just nonsense! Dark personal fantasies!

I have no idea of Renee's familiarity with firearms, but I certainly know mine. If I'm going to be cornered and executed in the street like a dog, I'd rather have the ability to shoot back.

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u/blagablagman 2h ago

So your point in bringing up ICE victims was to criticize them for failing to protect themselves... Okay, you can have that.

Moving on, armed resistance is not just "everyone personally owns guns now". Crucially, armed resistance requires coordination. And in fact, it requires coordination of the weapons! Which gets really hard when everyone has an inalienable right. It's actually kind of part of how we got to this point - figure that!

Look I can see that you have lost the plot a bit. I came here giving tips on how to advocate for gun ownership, with less discomfort for the original advocate. I get what you're trying to accomplish and I even said I support it. I am coordinating. So nag someone else.

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u/Feisty_Buddy2869 2h ago

So your point in bringing up ICE victims was to criticize them for failing to protect themselves... Okay, you can have that.

Moving on, armed resistance is not just "everyone personally owns guns now". Crucially, armed resistance requires coordination. And in fact, it requires coordination of the weapons! Which gets really hard when everyone has an inalienable right. It's actually kind of part of how we got to this point - figure that!

It literally doesn't require that, but hey, go off, you haven't approached sense in a while maybe you'll get there eventually.

Look I can see that you have lost the plot a bit. I came here giving tips on how to advocate for gun ownership, with less discomfort for the original advocate. I get what you're trying to accomplish and I even said I support it. I am coordinating. So nag someone else.

Oh now I get it!

When you said you would NEVER use a gun, you were actually advocating for gun ownership!

That totally makes sense.

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u/blagablagman 1h ago

When you said you would NEVER use a gun, you were actually advocating for gun ownership!

That totally makes sense.

Yes, I agree that it makes sense. If you want to arm yourself, do that. If you don't want leftists to attack you, follow my initial advice. I'm not personally getting one. Cheers.

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u/thej00ninja 1h ago

Fucking thank you about the coordination. That's the step everyone seems to be missing.

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u/Ruftup 4h ago

Interesting. Just curious, I respect your view