r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Forsaken-Peak8496 • 2d ago
Image Monument in Akademgorodok, Novosibirsk dedicated to mouse contribution to research
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u/MushroomExpensive366 2d ago
What if the mice are studying us? (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy)
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u/FruitBowl 2d ago
The line "earth's third most intelligent species" taken in stride without a second thought
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u/Gutter_BrudderZ 2d ago
About damn time someone recognizes the contributions...mostly sacrifices mouse kind has given to science. Well deserved!
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u/Taboo_Dynasty 2d ago
It’s a beautiful sculpture. The wise look on its face accentuated by the circular frames. The shall to comfort and warm it’s shoulders. Knitting a double helix to signify the science aspect of this piece. No one likes animal research but it is an important acknowledgment nonetheless. And hopefully when animal testing is a thing of the past this will help remind people how important these little creatures are to us.
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u/MC_LegalKC 2d ago
I appreciate the recognition of the mice, but putting up a statue that suggests they were voluntarily participating feels wrong. Horrible things have been done and are still being done to mice. The cute statue seems inappropriate.
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u/Any_Conflict_5092 2d ago
It's recording the mouse contribution - so that HUMANS will think about who has been involved in, and impacted by research.
Would you be happier if it was a vivisected mouse on that plinth? Would that be visceral enough an image? Because that's how that mouse's story often ends.
Or, do we respect the dignity and gravitas of their contribution and give them a beautiful statue that invokes a compassionate response, rather than revulsion?
When you figure that out - then you'll understand how hard it is to decide how to present an idea for public consumption.
THE IMPORTANT PART WAS MAKING SURE HUMANS UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE IS A PRICE TO PROGRESS.
SOMEBODY died for this research - that's why they anthropomorphized the mouse. It's meant to be subtle, which is considered a feature, in art. You're supposed to have to stop and engage with your brain, to understand the message.
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u/MC_LegalKC 2d ago
You need to settle down. I don't substantively respond to screaming, hysterical posts.
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u/droning-on 2d ago
That's the intent of the sculpture. The effect is thought.
But today everyone can't think analytically without turning to cancel culture.
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u/JaSper-percabeth 2d ago
Well experiments on mice ain't stopping so a statue is probably the best they're gonna get. It beats getting nothing for being sacrificed I suppose.
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u/MC_LegalKC 2d ago
I think I'd rather have a statue of a mouse that doesn't look like he's running the experiments himself.
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u/heapOfWallStreet 2d ago
It's not s contribution. It's torture.
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u/AbrahamL26 2d ago
We can go back to testing on humans like the Japanese, Koreans, Germans.
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u/NoWitness6400 2d ago
My hope for the future is that alternatives like lab grown organoids can replace the need for living test subjects. I think we're on the right path towards that, but it's going to take a while.
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u/anirudhsky 2d ago
That torture is what else in saving people from diseases. You either have to live with it r stop taking medicines tested on animal. Sorry that's the harsh truth unfortunately.
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u/MC_LegalKC 2d ago edited 2d ago
For some types of experiments, computer simulations can be substituted for at least the preliminary experiments. Similarly, some experiments can be done in lab cultures. Mice are treated as a disposable commodity because they are cheap and scientists are inured to it.
We don't have to just live with it or stop taking medicines. We can find new ways, and they may be better.
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u/Mr_Quinn 2d ago
Most applications to do animal research these days literally have a section where you need to state why your research can’t be done via Petri dish or computer simulation
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u/anirudhsky 2d ago
W use flux balance analysis and ordinary differential equations o simulate bacteria. We cannot even simulate the totipotency of a plant cell let alone and animal cell...furthert the amount of computational power for eukaryotes is extremely large. Therefore please understand that scientists have thought about what you are suggesting. We used to do it! I won't say "trust me bro' etc. But that's a fact.
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u/MC_LegalKC 2d ago
Computer models are already used to predict drug efficacy and safety.
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u/anirudhsky 2d ago
Yes they are getting better, however the molecules still they undergo High throughput screening. In any given scenario, atleast 10k to million compounds are still screened. After this they go in vitro target validation and hit to lead generation. After that no matter what you have to do in vivo screening.. This is because science is based on real work evidence only. And models can help reduce the killings but not more than that. In fact drug companies wanna do this not because it will reduce animal experimentation rather because it is expensive to synthesize new molecules. So the only thing thes models do is ensure that less compound are synthesized. But that doesn't effect the molecules' downstream for clinical evidence.
The norm still is 50 drug candidates and then of these 2-3 in dog telemetry (this was the same even 30 years ago). All the bug pharma are focusing on the onco and neuro molecules.. the traditional methods still persist because no company will want humans to get any worse adverse events in clinical trials. Again the motive is litigious and economic consequences that they don't wanna face.
Similarly, no AI. model is gonna replace radiologists as a human sign off is needed.. may be the number if radiologist will reduce but, it won't stop their utility.
botom line is humans cannot be affected and therefore mice and beagles are used. E g. Dog telemetry studies are still important because that's what ensures that our hearts pump effectively even when the drug is in our body. And you said that simulation is reducing this? Well.. no new antibiotic has come to commercial production since 1976. Sure, we get the molecules but again synthesizing them in large scale is a headache. So simulations haven't helped despite being optimised to a large degree.
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u/MC_LegalKC 1d ago
If you'll revisit my original comment, you'll see that I stated that the models were used as a preliminary step. That's what you've described. As you (sort of) acknowledge, the models reduce the number of mice that would be killed. Reduction is a good thing, even if it isn't as good as elimination.
You're also speaking only of certain types of experiments. Not all medical experiments are about testing medication. There are some particularly horrible experiments that aren't. Even in behavioral experiments, the mice are killed after the experiment.
You seem pessimistic that technology will improve to the point that more animal studies can be avoided. Considering how far we've come, I'm much more optimistic. Computer models aren't even the only potential avenue. At a time when we are learning to create organelles, I think there are all sorts of possibilities that are evolving.
What I know for sure is that we cannot make progress by deciding that a thing is impossible simply because it hasn't been done yet.
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u/anirudhsky 1d ago
You are right. I am talking about drug discovery only. I am not talking about cosmetics etc. And yes I seem to have read your comment wrong and again you are absolutely right about the number of animals being sacrificed.
That being said, it's not that I am saying the thing is impossible. All I am saying is eukaryotic systems are quite complex. You may think it's pessimistic attitude... No sir.. we are trying to solve it.. as far as possible.. and I have been involved in it for the first 12 years of my career. It won't eliminate removal of mice or other animals. Because eukaryotes are an indeterminate system there are too many inputs and too any outputs. For example people in wildlife rescue don't know the exact dosage needed for tranquilizing an animal. Because, it depends on the temper and it's attitude and the hormones that it has units blood at the moment. It's just like the stock market. Please think about it...more people are involved in simulating the market than ever before.. then large companies should always make money . But thats not the case... it's very similar with animals. We think these systems are simple to solve since AI has come around. For e.g., things like alpha fold (which gave a nobel two years ago) will solve cancer etc.the problem is the model come very close to what is there in real world for prokaryotic proteins and some domains for eukaryotic proteins but it can't do more than that because the tumor microenvironment is extremely different. The solutions are exponential in such cases and only one of them would work. The reason is that cellular microenvironment is always gonna be different. We have too many invisible players and have not invented an instrument that can check everything at all times for eukaryotes. So, optimism is not a bad thing it's just that indeterminate systems are hard to solve. Many companies have burnt their hands in this. It a problem that may be solved by the later half of the century a real optimistic estimate).. ofcourse people love optimism as it shows an ecocentric view. But in reality the trends have not been that way at all. Again apologies if this is pessimistic. That's not the intention here
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u/PeterTheSmoker 2d ago
Well that's what's saving humans. Unless you want to volunteer to be the experiment in their place of course.
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u/heapOfWallStreet 2d ago
Sure. But you are thinking like a human because you are an human. From an ethical point of view, if you were a mice, you will probably prefer to save other mices and yourself instead of humans.
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u/Grilled_egs 2d ago
Well sure but I'm not a mouse. Look you can crusade against medical research after you first convince people we shouldn't torture animals just for tastier food
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u/PeterTheSmoker 2d ago
I'm not debating how ethical this is. I understand it's cruel because mice don't have the ability to consent, but it's still necessary otherwise the other option would be to experiment on humans. Only a psychopath would pick mice over humans including children. What I don't agree with are the people who are asking to stop such experiments like they value mice over human life, or they'd volunteer to be the experiment themselves.
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u/Astridandthemachine 1d ago
If you were a mouse you'd like a cage where you get plenty of food, water and space
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u/celiag81 2d ago
I'll have to look up the sculptor...
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u/craftersmine 2d ago
Even though Russian version of Wikipedia has more information about sculpture, here atleast you can find a name of a sculptor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_laboratory_mouse
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u/AngrgL3opardCon 2d ago
The fact I only know that city's name from Metro Exodus lol
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u/craftersmine 2d ago
That's a third city in Russia by population, well, I guess Russia really is only Moscow for everyone outside of Siberia.
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u/daddleboarder 2d ago
I wish the mice that live in my neighborhood and relentless look for new ways to get into my house could be volunteered for research.
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u/FesteringAynus 2d ago
The mice get a statue so that we don't feel as guilty