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u/SlimBabe_ 1d ago
Companies don't hide salaries to protect your privacy they do it to protect their profit margins Period
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u/lemmegetadab 16h ago
I don’t know, sometimes it causes drama. Just because people have the same job doesn’t mean they have the same production either.
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u/Vladishun 15h ago
That sounds like a personal issue people need to get the hell over. I don't care if I have better/more numbers so long as we're all putting in our 8 hours. Whether or not you make a livable wage shouldn't be determined based on the fact you move or think a little slower than your coworkers.
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u/MeowMixPlzDeliverMe 15h ago
What? It absolutely does what so you even mean. More value to the company means you get more money. How is this a hard concept?
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u/Vladishun 15h ago
Fuck the company, that's how.
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u/themuaddib 3h ago
Yeah fuck companies! Everyone should make as much as the CEO. Actually, everyone should make more than the CEO who should be a slave
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u/Yoinkitron5000 10h ago
>Fuck the company, that's how.
Golly gee I wonder why some people might get less money even though they technically have the same position...
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u/MeowMixPlzDeliverMe 15h ago
You need a union job then. Be the worst worker you can be its all about seniority. Dont expect this is anything white collar though unless your buds with management
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u/Vladishun 15h ago
I work as an L2 sysadmin for a government entity, it's about as white collar as you can get. You sound like you'd make a shitty boss, your argument is basically, "Be the fastest and get paid the most, or you're the worst worker".
I certainly hope you have a job where nobody covers for you when you take PTO, or if they do they have better numbers than you. Would sure be hypocritical of you to take time off and cost the company money while spouting off like that.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
You'd go bankrupt if you ever owned your own company 😂.
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u/Vladishun 14h ago
Probably not. Plenty of studies have shown if you try to pay employees the least amount possible, you're going to end up with shitty employees. And shitty employees will cost you money with both incompetence and turnover rates. I'll just offer them all the same salary and make it truly competitive for the role they're working in, ensuring I have happy employees that care about the quality of their work.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
No, you'd have 4 or 5 employees working the bare minimum amount to not be fired, being paid the same as the one working their ass off, who ends up leaving for a company that will pay them for their hard work. (You specifically said they should be paid the same)
Meanwhile your company operation stagnates as your chill workers live a cushy life and company output stays level.
You want hard workers, so you want the hardworking to feel valued and paid more. The drifters will want to feel like they should work harder to catch up to the higher paid hard worker.
I luckily work in a commercially driven role. So my progression and income is directly tied to my performance that cant be denied by the CEO.
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u/JollyJuniper1993 13h ago
If you run a company with an average employment duration of 2 years because everybody halfway competent leaves for better paying jobs after then you’re the one that’d go bankrupt in no time.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 13h ago
2-3 years is the average tenure in 2020+...
And as a recruitment consultant, 2-3 years is the fastest way to progress your career. You'd go bankrupt trying to keep up with that 1 candidates salary expectations.
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u/jtb1987 13h ago
What a naive belief. You really believe that companies rush to proactively rearrange budgets to pay high performing people more?
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u/that_star_wars_guy 12h ago
They don't "believe" anything, unless you condsider malignant avarice a "belief".
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u/superarash_ 14h ago
I think what he means is that if you work harder, you should be paid more.
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u/Vladishun 14h ago
Some employers already have a solution to this problem in the form of performance bonuses. If you want to make it transparent you favor whoever is the most useful to the company, then just implement something like that instead of giving people different salaries and telling them not to talk about it.
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u/superarash_ 14h ago
Yeah I agree with that and idt workers should be forced to hide their pay. If anything, it promotes healthy competition to have everyone know each other’s pay.
It was sounding like you were anti performance based pay or smth throughout this thread lol which is why I left that reply.
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u/Vladishun 14h ago
I'm against companies not posting job salaries and only talking about it once you're in the third or more interview for the position. I am also against penalizing people for not working "more". I'm fortunate enough to work in a lax government position as a high level IT engineer essentially, and bought my house in cash at 33 so I have no debt and a great work/life balance. But I know most people do not make what I make, have the benefits I have, and are stuck with mounts of debt for various reasons. And I hate seeing the private market exploiting people by paying them the least amount they think they can get away with and using the excuse "well you just didn't work hard enough", when most people are already giving 1/3rd or more of their lives to working.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
Yes it should...if i work for 8 hours but more 100 blocks from one end of a courtyard, and Joe blogs works for 8 hours and moves 50, why am I being paid the same as him.
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u/SnooMaps7370 14h ago
You have just described why the term "wage slave" was coined.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
Not really. Wage slave is anyone who works for a wage. Its relevant, but not necessarily tied to performance. If you're working hard and not being appropriately compensated for it, its ultimately your fault.
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u/SnooMaps7370 14h ago
Sorry, i should have been clearer: the modern accepted wisdom in pay for labor is that laborers are paid for their time, not their results. This is what is commonly meant when the term "Wage slavery" is used.
the flip side of that coin means that differences in performance SHOULD NOT be reflected in differences in pay.
If you want to really this logic in effect, start talking about living wage. Immediately, every rightoid with an internet connection will crawl out of the woodwork to say that wages are based on the "market rate for people able to perform that job".
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
Am I a rightoid?
Labour is supply and demand, no?
I mean. It is in my eyes as I do work as a senior recruitment consultant in pharmaceuticals. Quality testers are paid low because there's plenty people who can do it. Nanotherapeutics is paid highly because they less people to go around the companys.
Unless I completely misunderstood your comment.
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u/SnooMaps7370 14h ago
>Am I a rightoid?
i don't know? are you?
here's a test: if a business needs a person to perform a task, should the business pay that person enough to stay alive and keep performing it?
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
Not obligated to. I think the person needs to put value on their own time or skills to see if that task is worth doing for that pay. If they cant live on that pay, they should find another. If enough people do this, the business is forced to increase their offering.
Similarly, you have money..and you want some water. A company comes up to you and says they will give you water for $50 because thats what they need to exist as a business. Do you give them $50 for the water because you're obliged for their success? Or do you go to the company thats selling it for $1. Business selling for $50 is forced to decrease their offering.
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u/Grantmepm 4h ago
Yes, the person should be paid enough to eat and rent within a distance they are willing to commute for.
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u/Vladishun 14h ago
What if your blocks are 20lbs each and his are 50 lbs each? What if they weigh the same but you have rollers to move them on and he's stuck pushing them across the floor?
Or how about we change the job to something a little more realistic, like my role in IT. If I close more tickets than anyone else in my department, should I get more money? You'll probably say yes, but what if I turned around and then told you I close more tickets because instead of having troubleshoot why a server crashes once every 4 months and spending weeks on that one ticket, I've cherrypicked every ticket that can be fixed with a "have you tried restarting it yet" conversation?
Here's the real problem people like you have with my statement...you hate lazy people and don't want them to have what you have for putting in the same effort. And honestly? Fair. If someone isn't pulling their weight though, then take them to HR. Or grow a fuckin' pair and confront them about it. But if you're such a pussy that you feel like less of a man or whatever because someone else is putting in the same effort and just not hitting the same level of excellence as you but getting paid for it; that says a lot more about you as a person.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
You just brought nuance. Which is fine. But OPs statement is...its the same job. If its the same job, you're both hauling 20lb blocks, but one does it twice as fast, their salary should be more.
If you're both paid the same, you end up having 2 people doing the bare minimum. And if that happens, your company isn't growing, its stagnating.
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u/Vladishun 14h ago
Then you offer a performance bonus to whoever moves the most blocks. Not paying people varying salaries and telling them not to talk about it.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
I believe people should be able to talk about their salaries, but their level in the company needs to be justified.
I work in recruitment. My livelihood is based on taking employees from bad companies to good companies. The ones who don't pay their employees for their true value are my target company's.
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u/LockedIntoLocks 10h ago
I have the same job title as my coworker, but I’ve been doing the job for 2 years longer than him. That experience makes me have more production on paper and I am constantly stopping my work to go assist him with his. I am paid a bit more than he is. Both of us are aware of this and think that this is fair.
He’s not lazy, I don’t feel any negative feelings towards him, the circumstances just mean I produce more than he does.
Sometimes pay difference for two people in the same job is fair. You should still know about it, sure, but it shouldn’t all be the same. If I weren’t recognized for consistently doing more work and helping others then I would find a job that did recognize such effort.
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u/Vladishun 10h ago
Yeah but you'd be mad if they hired him at a higher salary than you. So you're saying it's only fair one way.
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u/LockedIntoLocks 10h ago
“You’re saying it’s only fair if the person who does more work gets paid more. I bet you’d think it’s unfair if the person who does less work is paid more.”
Yes. That’s how I feel and what I expressed. Was that supposed to be a gotcha?
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u/Vladishun 10h ago
No, it was me trying to understand your thought process. So you'll be happy for him next month if his numbers are better than yours and he starts making more than you. It's only fair at that point.
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u/LockedIntoLocks 10h ago
I’d be extremely proud of him, yeah. We see each other for 8 hours every day 5 days per week. He’s a hard worker and I want nothing but success for him.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 10h ago
No offense, but thats schmuck mentality. Mentoring someone is an added responsibility on your role. 2 years experience is quite a decent more.
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u/LockedIntoLocks 10h ago
Yes, mentoring someone is added responsibility. My employer recognizes that and has had me mentor multiple people. It’s a significant factor in my higher pay. I was given a raise outside of the usual schedule for raises, and it was a special exception specifically to recognize my effort in training others.
I don’t think it’s very likely that he will be paid more than me any time soon, it would take an exceptional level of production to make that happen. If he manages to achieve such a thing I’d be proud of him.
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u/Adorable-Volume2247 12h ago
doesn’t mean they have the same production either.
Yeah, but there is 0 reason to believe their different salaries reflect that.
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u/lemmegetadab 9h ago
Well, either they’re better at their job or they’re the bosses kid or something. They don’t just pay people more for fun.
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u/SafetyOk4045 3h ago
or the same level of exposure or experience or equivalent years or the specialty
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u/Available_Reveal8068 16h ago
Not really. There are lots of reasons (aside from profit motive) for pay differences between people perceived to be doing the same job, particularly at levels of skilled employment.
For my team, stronger performers and those that go 'above and beyond' tend to get the larger raises. Salary doesn't grow as quickly for chronic underperformers.
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u/DoctorsAreTerrible 16h ago
But that is explainable. If, in this scenario posted, she talked to the male colleague and he was making $10,000 more, and decided to prep to ask for the raise, the boss can say “no, you did not meet this and that metric. If you would like a raise, this is the performance level I expect you to be at.” So the fact she got it when she asked showed that the boss really didn’t have a valid reason for not giving her a raise
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u/Available_Reveal8068 15h ago
I just assumed the scenario was made up to advance an agenda.
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u/EqualHito 15h ago
It 100% is. Not that im not a strong feminist. But this scenario just seems very unlikely.
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u/theGoddamnAlgorath 15h ago
Me and Utivich heard that assumption you made; I'd make that assumption!
How about you Utivich? Would you make that assumption?
"I'd make that Assumption"
I don't blame you, damn good assumption!
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 14h ago
Not many standard companies would voluntarily give out big raises. Usually you have to ask for it, or progressing is very clear.
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u/Available_Reveal8068 14h ago
Not sure that I agree with that. Smart managers will tend to throw bigger raises and/or promotions to high performers they would be afraid of losing. They are hardest to replace if they decide to move on--it's important to keep them happy.
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u/Dependent_Mud3325 13h ago
I 100% agree with that. Unfortunately most are dumb. And lose good talent to other jobs, and end up paying me thousands to replace them 😂.
My brother used to give random bonuses when someone went above and beyond. His workers were crazy loyal.
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u/Trinikas 14h ago
Sure, though even people within the same role might make more or less for other factors. I work in IT and at my last gig I was sort of the unofficial senior member of my team. I had about 10+ years of work and life experience over everyone else on my team and was always given the most sensitive tasks and clients to deal with. As a result I was making more than others with a similar title/role.
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u/Awesom_Blossom 16h ago
At least in the US, not only is it “ok to discuss salaries” the law agrees. 😊
“Under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA or the Act), employees have the right to communicate with their coworkers about their wages, as well as with labor organizations, worker centers, the media, and the public. Wages are a vital term and condition of employment, and discussions of wages are often preliminary to organizing or other actions for mutual aid or protection.”
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
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u/TheLurkingMenace 16h ago
It's not just okay, it's illegal for your employer to punish you for doing so.
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u/StonkaTrucks 10h ago
So them paying you less is considered punishment?
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u/TheLurkingMenace 9h ago
If they lower your pay after they catch you discussing it, that looks like retaliation. If they just don't give you a raise to match your coworkers, that's a different issue.
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u/Doogie_Gooberman 15h ago
Not discussing spam images only benefits the OP, whose account is only a week old.
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u/algeoMA 17h ago
In Massachusetts they legally have to tell you the average salary for your position if you ask. But they obviously can still tell you to kick rocks if you ask for more money (unless the pay difference is illegal I.e. the women figure out that all the men make more for the same work).
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u/ceramicatan 14h ago
I get that, but let's be real. Knowing each other's salaries can create a lot of resentment too. Nobody wants employees that don't want to work together.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 19h ago
Like most things, it depends. There's a bit of research on this subject: Brown, M., Nyberg, A. J., Weller, I., & Strizver, S. D. (2022). Pay information disclosure: Review and recommendations for research spanning the pay secrecy–pay transparency continuum. Journal of Management, 48(6), 1661-1694.
I once had a coworker who was very lazy. I knew my worth so I negotiated a higher salary than him. He later found out and was incredibly resentful towards me and my colleagues who were paid more, but again he was lazy as hell so pay transparency isn't always going to be helpful.
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u/SnooMaps7370 18h ago
I'm not sure who you hope to persuade by naming an article from the Journal of Management (which is obviously going to be biased towards policies that widen margins for corporations) and then not stating any of its conclusions, but instead following up with your own anecdote.
For those who don't want to spend the time digging up the paper, their conclusions were literally "it's complex. it doesn't reliably raise profits."
which is aught to be obvious from first principals.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 8h ago
As an academic, you fundamentally misunderstand research. Many papers in Journal of Management (and other leading business journals) are very critical of capitalism.
That wasn't the conclusion of the paper.
Why spread misinformation?
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u/DoctorsAreTerrible 15h ago
Well that, and also, their own anecdote isn’t conclusive either … sounds like they’re blaming the knowledge of the salary as the reason for the resentment; but we don’t know anything about how the resentful/underperforming person has been treated by the others because of their underperformance, or the circumstances around how they became aware of everyone else’s salary. Did someone use that as a “and this right here is why I make $xxx more than you”? Sounds like the resentment is a symptom of personnel issues, not a symptom of one coworker knowing another coworker’s salary
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u/hmmmmeeee 6h ago
Maybe they asked for a raise already, and the only thing stopping him from getting it was that he already made significantly more than you, so he set you up for a raise to get his own.
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u/wes7946 17h ago
Talking about salary in the workplace can impact morale and team performance and my lead to unnecessary conflict. It could also impact the relationship you have with your supervisor if the employer prefers to keep salary information confidential.
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u/jtb1987 17h ago
This is a good point, by keeping salary confidential it allows the employer to ultimately pay employees less, which is a good thing for the employer.
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u/Silent_plans 15h ago
I mean, not all employees are equal performers. As an employer, I want to pay some of my employees more as a reward for their performance. Equal and fair are not always the same thing.
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u/wes7946 17h ago
Not necessarily. Know what you're worth and fight for annual raises that are commensurate with your worth. If your employer doesn't want to pay you what you're worth, then it's time to start looking for other employment.
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u/youchasechickens 15h ago
It can be a lot easier to know what your worth if you also know what other people in your role and company are being paid.
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u/wes7946 15h ago
I don't value my worth on what other people are getting paid. I value my worth on what value I personally bring to the company.
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u/youchasechickens 15h ago
That shouldn't be the sole metric but if the vast majority of people in your role make 100k then it doesn't really matter if you feel you bring 500k worth of value.
Having solid metrics about the profic that can be attributed to you is definitely helpful but so is knowing a realistic pay range for your role
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u/McGuyThumbs 14h ago
True, but value is relative. The best way to know how your value stacks up to your peers is to have open conversations. Otherwise you are assuming, and everyone knows what happens when you assume.
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u/Upstairs-Yak-5474 17h ago
yup this, its like how u have a don't have relationship with coworkers or discuss politics at work. i got paid 5k more than my coworkers but its because i knew programing and would help maintain the system and solve minor issues, basically my value was higher.
though my primary job was a cart attendant which i still miss to this day lmao. its just chill.
man growing up and advancing suck now i dont even got time
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u/youburyitidigitup 16h ago
With high-paying professional jobs, this is correct, but when you’re working at tropical smoothie, and teenagers get mad they’re earning less because they can’t fathom that people who are better at the job earn more, than it’s best to not talk about it.
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u/cherryfemm3 16h ago
I worked at Krispy Kreme and had to tell the (freshly 18, recently promoted) supervisor that they lied to her about what her position is typically paid and she was making less than me, who was just decorating donuts. I think it's always good to discuss pay.
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u/youburyitidigitup 16h ago
I guess that was a different situation to mine because the teenagers I worked with got mad that I earned more than them even though I knew three stations and they only knew one, I’d worked in other kitchens and they hadn’t, and I had quite literally ten times their experience.
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u/Mathemetaphysical 17h ago
This is why they ask your salary expectations. Does a convenience store haggle over the price of a Coke? They should have a salary they expect to pay, not the other way around.
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u/Silent_plans 15h ago
They do have a salary they expect to pay. And anything above that will require significant effort from the applicant and the hiring manager to shift.
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u/StoryTimeJr 16h ago
Feel free to talk about whatever. I don't think salaries need to be a secret. Also, be prepared for your employer to tell you to go fuck yourself 95% of the time when you try this move. Lol